Official Luthiers Forum!

It's mostly visual. I like what John Griffin says about his low grade Adirondack Spruce, "tonally the equal of the higher grades." I agree, the ugly duckling can sound as good as the prize goose.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Bob Bennedetto has a similar exposition in the very begining of his book, he makes a archtop out of flatsawn construction grade 2x10 pine top riddled w/knots, knotty weather checked unmatched maple back, and plain maple sides. He did this to prove once and for all that a guitar, can be made from so called "inferior tonewood" that sounds as good as any of his 10,000 and up master grade istruments.
I think it looks a treat! Ill take it Bob!
Cheers
Charliewood

Other than slight differences in tone arising from different stiffnesses...which may be a result of tighter grain spacing, which may be a factor in grain spacing...

I also find it hard to believe that there's a significant difference in tone between a pretty piece of spruce and an ugly one.

What I don't get, however, is why you wouldn't continue to charge differently for different grades. If a builder here made two guitars and both sounded good...but one had lousy details and wasn't aesthetically pleasing they'd have a hard time getting the same price for both.

Andrew Wright
Managua, Nicaragua

It's mostly aesthetics. I say "mostly".
The biggest issue here is a marketing issue. Buyers expect to see really perfect pretty wood when they spend big bucks on a guitar. The truth is that even the folks who get really big dollars for the instruments they build have a lot invested in tooling and time and wood, and still have to carefully watch the bottom line to make money. It can be bothersome to spend a big chunk of extra cash on wood for purely cosmetic reasons, especially when the more expensive piece of wood won't yield better sound. These builders understand the balance of everything. The trick is to get the buying public to understand that.
The other side of the equation, is that while we all like to think that getting the most perfect looking, stiffest piece of wood will help yield the best results, that's not necessarily the case. I know a guy who is one of the finest builders in the business, and he doesn't like the most stiff tops. He feels he gets better results with wood that is slightly floppier than what many look for. There's a lot more to that, but for this conversation, that's all that is relevant.

I like a perfect looking top as much as anyone, but I also like wood that has character and color variations. That's part of the beauty of wood IMO.Don Williams38843.6015162037

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

have had the highest price stuff and lower end stuff. Not much in tone,sound whatever looking for to me, but then again tone death for most part. I bet could build with the high price stuff and lower end stuff, put on same back and sides material, build to same standards and person with back to player couldn't tell which is whicn for the most part. Always the great ears out there. I just build what the customer would want, and when for donations, what I can get or like to look at. Take the same woods and have poor building tech and will sound poor. Pay attention to build in all the process and do a good job, will sound good. It sucks for that for most part the sound of a good guitar comes down to how it is built. Not always as there is no such thing as always all the time

Eh John!
What a complete surprise to see post you here!

Who'da thunk!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Shocking!

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

What Lance said....I didn't realize who that was...hmmm...interesting post...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Now stop it!

Your gonna spoil a good thing.

I've been happily buying "cosmetically challenged" tops for great prices for quite some time now. I love the prices and personally, I like the look. It's called character.

I am not going to charge anymore for the differation in grades

Cool! Then we'll all want nothing but your best looking, most dead-on, even colored, pale white, even grained(30 lpi, with no more than 31 and no less than 29 anywhere), outrageous silking right across the board, not a wiggle in the grain to be found anywhere, etc.... Yup, since you'll charge the same for that one as you will for the one that's 8 lpi at one edge and 36 at the other with the big orange streaks and wiggles here and there, no silk, knot shadow on one side, etc....

Since they'll sound the same, and you'll charge the same....

Yup, that's an easy one. I'll take the flawless one, please and thank you. How much?

Mario you kill me!

I'll have the same as Mario.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

And i thought this guy was always grumpy!

Wellllll!!!

The truth be known, there is a difference...A HUGE DIFFERENCE!! Some of the high end builders I sell to like yops with grain counts in the 20 gpi area. But I get better responce from most of customers with sets in the 30+ gpi area. But these aren't the onlt things. As Mario stated, everybody wants, and should get, wood that has little to no runout, even grain spacing (regardless of the count), cut well on quarter and straighter the better. Those are structural issues that should allow your guitar to withstand the forces placed upon it better. Colour is a cosmetic thing, but as Herry Becker (Cumpiano's partner) said when we discussed colour, the top is like a face on a geisha, everything else is fancy and colourful and the 'face' sets that all off.

I was just at Peter Hopkins' shop (a great archtop builder!) and he bought a couple Lutz sets. He had some sitka from Alaska (not John's) that was very good looking, well cut, even colour, straight. By all acounts these should have been wonderful sets, they tapped dead! He built one guitar from the wood and said that it just didn't have the sparkle he expected from his guitars. I mean, if the log those sets came from was available to me I would have bought it! But, once I cut the sets and found them acoustically poor, the sets would be down graded. That is part of being a 'TONEWOOD' dealer rather than a 'WOOD' dealer! I think it is remains true...you get what you pay for...for the most part!

Shane

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Canada

Don't feel too bad for us that are getting "hornswaggled" by the middle
men...IMHO they add value - I don't have the capability to cut top sets out
of a bolt of wood for one. For another, being a noob, I rely on those guys
to help me select the right wood for what I'm doing. They also usually
offer services like sanding the set to a specific thickness. They also
usually offer back and side sets and other wood parts so I can order them
all from one place and save on shipping.

I've visited your site and love the way you harvest the wood and your
dedication to the work. That said, I'm glad you sell to middle men, else I
wouldn't end up with any of that fine lumber you make available.
LanceK38846.5796064815